Opinions of the Death Penalty

[Inject OH 4]

the question is not if it is perfect but if it is better...
perfection is impossible one can only strive to be better

but its not just unperfect it's very lacking.

Elaborate -.-

Sorry but neither system is great.

Your system does have some great plus and fix's to ours but still neither one is a great solution.

Sorry Mr. Nationalist :/

[Jorgen]

the question is not if it is perfect but if it is better...
perfection is impossible one can only strive to be better

but its not just unperfect it's very lacking.

Elaborate -.-

Sorry but neither system is great.

Your system does have some great plus and fix's to ours but still neither one is a great solution.

Sorry Mr. Nationalist :/

thank you for that unecesary personal attack. What I said was not nationalist merely I was hinting that this is a debate thread and not a thread for saying your system is flawed.
I know just as every1 else that there is flaws in either system I am not a fool... But saying your system is very lacking requires substansiell back up of that opinion. If not a debate thread would literally be. person A: I like burger king Person B: I like mcdonalds, the end.

So if you want to call names for some1 trying to gather input as to why your views are as they are then go ahead, but it only makes you seem like a twat.
just like this makes me look like a twat that is mad, allthouh I am not.

Back to the fucking topic now, the death penalty works against itself to be honest. You wish to kill for some1 who was killed, does now suddenly 2 wrongs make 1 right? Have your values suddenly changed? If the story is about death then you no longer care about right? just vengence?

It is probably hard for you guys to see where I am coming from you have never experienced my system, you have only seen that your media talks about your system as justice. The same could be said about my system without a doubt, however the systems statistically don't really match. in Norway the return rate normally is around 35-43% and the return rates in America has acording to what I see been around 50-70% which is higher. Both systems are dealing with something terible and when you do it is always hard to deal with it, because it will never be perfect or even close to it.

Just thougth I'd end my thougts with how parenting is now vs before, before smacking your child was completely normal now it is tabu. Same shit really different degree of seriousness but same thing.

[Inject OH 4]

the question is not if it is perfect but if it is better...
perfection is impossible one can only strive to be better

but its not just unperfect it's very lacking.

Elaborate -.-

Sorry but neither system is great.

Your system does have some great plus and fix's to ours but still neither one is a great solution.

Sorry Mr. Nationalist :/

thank you for that unecesary personal attack. What I said was not nationalist merely I was hinting that this is a debate thread and not a thread for saying your system is flawed.
I know just as every1 else that there is flaws in either system I am not a fool... But saying your system is very lacking requires substansiell back up of that opinion. If not a debate thread would literally be. person A: I like burger king Person B: I like mcdonalds, the end.

So if you want to call names for some1 trying to gather input as to why your views are as they are then go ahead, but it only makes you seem like a twat.
just like this makes me look like a twat that is mad, allthouh I am not.

Back to the fucking topic now, the death penalty works against itself to be honest. You wish to kill for some1 who was killed, does now suddenly 2 wrongs make 1 right? Have your values suddenly changed? If the story is about death then you no longer care about right? just vengence?

It is probably hard for you guys to see where I am coming from you have never experienced my system, you have only seen that your media talks about your system as justice. The same could be said about my system without a doubt, however the systems statistically don't really match. in Norway the return rate normally is around 35-43% and the return rates in America has acording to what I see been around 50-70% which is higher. Both systems are dealing with something terible and when you do it is always hard to deal with it, because it will never be perfect or even close to it.

Just thougth I'd end my thougts with how parenting is now vs before, before smacking your child was completely normal now it is tabu. Same shit really different degree of seriousness but same thing.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q</a>
Jack... ahgr I mean Jorgen LOL, That wasn't a personal attack. And wasn't related to what you said in the thread, the nationalist thing was based on your personality and was a joke. It's funny because you just said on ventrilo that people take things to seriously on the forums and feel attacked, but anyways.

I'm just simply saying that having our prison system changed to Norwegian isn't an answer to our problems, it's just another system that could use work. I don't think their is a good jail system. I never said I hated yours it has great things about it that we could really learn from and implement in ours but to steal it all entirely isn't the solution their both flawed and very poor in terms of how good they could be.

And in my original post I wasn't even referring to yours to begin with.

I'm not calling you names Jorgen, calm down, that was just a little joke because of your personality, I know your not a nationalist relax. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

It's sort of like when someone says I hate Juice and then they say "OK HITLER" It's called a joke. Or an exaggeration.

I'm not a twat and I don't see how calling someone else names because they called you something is helpful to the situation, it just escalates things and is nothing but bad for the thread and situation. But thanks for calling me a twat, even though I'm not being one.



and Back to your back on topic area.

I don't think anyone who's for the death penalty is for it for revenge, they probably prefer it because it gets dangerous people off the streets and out of society and quickly and cheaply (not saying that's true or that i agree just that I believe that's what they meant).


I'm not really blinded by main stream media as I do not partake in watching it since it's just full of over hyped scare tactics to attract and control viewers essentially. It's just utter crap and is good for no one. Not just Fox either, CNN is just as bad and people seem to forget that (or at least it is now).

Now you also forget about gun laws, given that crimes can be put on a more dangerious level and may be easier to commit can or could be reason towards higher return rates given that commiting dangerious crimes is much easier then in Norway. Getting your hands on Illigal or Legal weapons isn't insainly difficult. Given that Norways gun laws differ could contribute to less highly avergated volice and in turn making the return rates lower because of this. Not sure if you get what I ment by that and if you didn't I understand it was a crappy paragraph and I don't have time to correct it.

And I defiantly agree that rehabilitation should always at least be attempted. And that a good system for that is needed in America however it isn't always a solution and won't prevent some things that need to be dealt with differently.

[Jorgen]

the question is not if it is perfect but if it is better...
perfection is impossible one can only strive to be better

but its not just unperfect it's very lacking.

Elaborate -.-

Sorry but neither system is great.

Your system does have some great plus and fix's to ours but still neither one is a great solution.

Sorry Mr. Nationalist :/

thank you for that unecesary personal attack. What I said was not nationalist merely I was hinting that this is a debate thread and not a thread for saying your system is flawed.
I know just as every1 else that there is flaws in either system I am not a fool... But saying your system is very lacking requires substansiell back up of that opinion. If not a debate thread would literally be. person A: I like burger king Person B: I like mcdonalds, the end.

So if you want to call names for some1 trying to gather input as to why your views are as they are then go ahead, but it only makes you seem like a twat.
just like this makes me look like a twat that is mad, allthouh I am not.

Back to the fucking topic now, the death penalty works against itself to be honest. You wish to kill for some1 who was killed, does now suddenly 2 wrongs make 1 right? Have your values suddenly changed? If the story is about death then you no longer care about right? just vengence?

It is probably hard for you guys to see where I am coming from you have never experienced my system, you have only seen that your media talks about your system as justice. The same could be said about my system without a doubt, however the systems statistically don't really match. in Norway the return rate normally is around 35-43% and the return rates in America has acording to what I see been around 50-70% which is higher. Both systems are dealing with something terible and when you do it is always hard to deal with it, because it will never be perfect or even close to it.

Just thougth I'd end my thougts with how parenting is now vs before, before smacking your child was completely normal now it is tabu. Same shit really different degree of seriousness but same thing.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q</a>
Jack... ahgr I mean Jorgen LOL, That wasn't a personal attack. And wasn't related to what you said in the thread, the nationalist thing was based on your personality and was a joke. It's funny because you just said on ventrilo that people take things to seriously on the forums and feel attacked, but anyways.

I'm just simply saying that having our prison system changed to Norwegian isn't an answer to our problems, it's just another system that could use work. I don't think their is a good jail system. I never said I hated yours it has great things about it that we could really learn from and implement in ours but to steal it all entirely isn't the solution their both flawed and very poor in terms of how good they could be.

And in my original post I wasn't even referring to yours to begin with.

I'm not calling you names Jorgen, calm down, that was just a little joke because of your personality, I know your not a nationalist relax. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

It's sort of like when someone says I hate Juice and then they say "OK HITLER" It's called a joke. Or an exaggeration.

I'm not a twat and I don't see how calling someone else names because they called you something is helpful to the situation, it just escalates things and is nothing but bad for the thread and situation. But thanks for calling me a twat, even though I'm not being one.



and Back to your back on topic area.

I don't think anyone who's for the death penalty is for it for revenge, they probably prefer it because it gets dangerous people off the streets and out of society and quickly and cheaply (not saying that's true or that i agree just that I believe that's what they meant).


I'm not really blinded by main stream media as I do not partake in watching it since it's just full of over hyped scare tactics to attract and control viewers essentially. It's just utter crap and is good for no one. Not just Fox either, CNN is just as bad and people seem to forget that (or at least it is now).

Now you also forget about gun laws, given that crimes can be put on a more dangerious level and may be easier to commit can or could be reason towards higher return rates given that commiting dangerious crimes is much easier then in Norway. Getting your hands on Illigal or Legal weapons isn't insainly difficult. Given that Norways gun laws differ could contribute to less highly avergated volice and in turn making the return rates lower because of this. Not sure if you get what I ment by that and if you didn't I understand it was a crappy paragraph and I don't have time to correct it.

And I defiantly agree that rehabilitation should always at least be attempted. And that a good system for that is needed in America however it isn't always a solution and won't prevent some things that need to be dealt with differently.

just though i'd atleast ad a paragraph to answear the first portion, I did not take it personally and I am not mad at you. I tried showing that this is a debate thread name calling and jokes are rarely a side of it, because if you add that sort of stuff it gets very easily heated.


Gun control could contribute to lower return rates, but only in certain crimes. We still have lower return rates from mugging, grand theft auto and larceny neither of which genrally directly requires a gun.
but hey I see your point. However is that not a good thing though?

Also I am not saying the system would be the answear to your system because it isn't, America has dug such a giant hole for it self that it would be impossible to pay for such a fix up. However saying they are both very lacking is wrong, they are both lacking yes but adding very just makes it plane wrong. A system has never been as good as it is now pretty much, so in our limited understanding as human beings it is still as close to perfect as we managed to muster up.

on the whole you can't see where I am coming from it doesn't matter if you don't see the news, your social life does not consist of talking to me about what happens here with the people who have gone to jail. You hear from every form of media about your own system, bare in mind media is any form of storage or spreading of information.

Every person in the world has heard this expression an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Losing another human being is a horrific experience and an awfull situation but sorry to say, but he is not getting justice no matter what you do killing that other man is not going to bring him back. Also the death sentence is more likely to be a thing if you kill a person off higher ranking how is that fair? I thought every human being was equal in such a question...

No1 here is saying their system is perfect or the ultimate answear we merely conflict in if we think one or the other system has more redeeming factors about it. I personally think our system should be split in 2, first time offenders can go to the prisons we have now maybe even 2nd time offenders but everything after that should go to a typical American prison. fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

[Liam Neeson]

Couldn't disagree more jorgen three strike laws sound good on paper ,but in reality they send people to prison for otherwise petty offenses. Adding a number to anything doesn't make it fair and incarceration should depend on the specific situation instead of some random number.

As for the system I think we should have its pretty untested waters so its hard to say which system is best and here in america its going to take us quite a long time to test said water. I do however think in the meantime we should get rid of the death penalty completely and work on getting rid of life sentence with no chance of parole.

[Pillz]

People go to jail for petty reasons, but they don't get the death penalty for petty reasons.

[Spadie]

I think the Death Penalty should be used in cases of multiple murders or murders of people under the age of 15, otherwise life imprisonment. For other crimes such as rape, I believe the perpetrator, if proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt should be physically altered so they cannot achieve an erection, and also should have a forced vasectomy.

Edit: Of course rape isn't just a guy thing.. Don't know what the punishment should be for women.

[Liam Neeson]

I think the Death Penalty should be used in cases of multiple murders or murders of people under the age of 15, otherwise life imprisonment. For other crimes such as rape, I believe the perpetrator, if proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt should be physically altered so they cannot achieve an erection, and also should have a forced vasectomy.

Edit: Of course rape isn't just a guy thing.. Don't know what the punishment should be for women.

Should we cut off the hands of people that steal as well, you all seem to keep forgetting these are still human beings. Beyond that our justice system is still very much imperfect and we should stay away from any irreversible punishments such as the death penalty or castration for more than just moral reasons ,but because you never know 100% that someone is guilty. We should always allow people no matter the crime to redeem themselves or prove themselves innocent.

[Spadie]

I think the Death Penalty should be used in cases of multiple murders or murders of people under the age of 15, otherwise life imprisonment. For other crimes such as rape, I believe the perpetrator, if proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt should be physically altered so they cannot achieve an erection, and also should have a forced vasectomy.

Edit: Of course rape isn't just a guy thing.. Don't know what the punishment should be for women.

Should we cut off the hands of people that steal as well, you all seem to keep forgetting these are still human beings. Beyond that our justice system is still very much imperfect and we should stay away from any irreversible punishments such as the death penalty or castration for more than just moral reasons ,but because you never know 100% that someone is guilty. We should always allow people no matter the crime to redeem themselves or prove themselves innocent.

Stealing is a little bit different than Rape... And as far as I'm concerned, someone who rapes someone else is far below a human being in my eyes. And like I said, only should be done if proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Meaning where it is absolutely incontrovertible that this happened (witnesses, DNA, a confession even). If it cannot be proven with no reasonable suspicion on the contrary, these punishments should be put into motion.

[Old Crow]

I think the Death Penalty should be used in cases of multiple murders or murders of people under the age of 15, otherwise life imprisonment. For other crimes such as rape, I believe the perpetrator, if proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt should be physically altered so they cannot achieve an erection, and also should have a forced vasectomy.

Edit: Of course rape isn't just a guy thing.. Don't know what the punishment should be for women.

Should we cut off the hands of people that steal as well, you all seem to keep forgetting these are still human beings. Beyond that our justice system is still very much imperfect and we should stay away from any irreversible punishments such as the death penalty or castration for more than just moral reasons ,but because you never know 100% that someone is guilty. We should always allow people no matter the crime to redeem themselves or prove themselves innocent.

Stealing is a little bit different than Rape... And as far as I'm concerned, someone who rapes someone else is far below a human being in my eyes. And like I said, only should be done if proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Meaning where it is absolutely incontrovertible that this happened (witnesses, DNA, a confession even). If it cannot be proven with no reasonable suspicion on the contrary, these punishments should be put into motion.

Liam's right, you know how hard it is to prove something 100%, it just doesn't happen, and even then, would we be any better mutilating a criminal for a crime, then the actual crime itself. I would hope we would take the higher road in that situation.

[Leomire]

I think the Death Penalty should be used in cases of multiple murders or murders of people under the age of 15, otherwise life imprisonment. For other crimes such as rape, I believe the perpetrator, if proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt should be physically altered so they cannot achieve an erection, and also should have a forced vasectomy.

Edit: Of course rape isn't just a guy thing.. Don't know what the punishment should be for women.

Should we cut off the hands of people that steal as well, you all seem to keep forgetting these are still human beings. Beyond that our justice system is still very much imperfect and we should stay away from any irreversible punishments such as the death penalty or castration for more than just moral reasons ,but because you never know 100% that someone is guilty. We should always allow people no matter the crime to redeem themselves or prove themselves innocent.

Just because we are Human beings doesn't mean anything. We are still animals like anything on this planet. Redemption is impossible to some no matter what they do. Redemption is a self-righteous idea to make yourself feel better at night. At the end of the day you can't fix what you've done and it'll be better to put your miserable existence to an end before you do more harm. People don't change no matter what happens to them.

[Spadie]

Liam's right, you know how hard it is to prove something 100%, it just doesn't happen, and even then, would we be any better mutilating a criminal for a crime, then the actual crime itself. I would hope we would take the higher road in that situation.

I believe we would be taking the higher road in making sure the person in question would not be able to commit the crime again. As someone who has a family member who has been raped, and having seen her go into a depression for weeks at a time because she occasionally sees the guy around town, and having seen how her father had to leave work (at a police station) for a night because he was going to shoot the guy (whom showed up in the drunk tank). This guy is walking around again, I'm not sure how long his prison sentence was but it couldn't have been more than 2 years. So he pays two years of his life and gets to walk around in public, someone who has shown themselves to be a sexual predator, whom admitted to the crime, is allowed to walk around with little to no repercussions?

Sure, registered sex offender, some public embarrassment perhaps, but if he chooses to do so, he may commit the crime he so willingly showed he was able to once again at a moments notice. Hell, he can have kids, and what happens to them? Do they just have to put up with the sexual abuse? Sure, they might report it and he'll be arrested again, but the damage is done. These victims will never get that sense of security again. Ever. So why should we be worried about the rapist being 'redeemed', as he already gave someone else a life sentence that they cannot escape from.

No, I believe that bastard and any other one who commits these crimes (Rape, Crimes against children) should pay in a way where they will not be able to re-commit the crime. Whether it be a permanent prison stay without the possibility of parole, or a shorter prison stay with castration/alteration as I stated before, or death. Preferably the last two, because the first one is expensive and the prisons would fill up and stay full for a very long time, costing the citizens (of whichever nation it is) loads of money to keep these pieces of filth alive and comfortable in their little cells getting 3 square meals a day and recess outside for exercise time.

[Inject OH 4]

just though i'd atleast ad a paragraph to answear the first portion, I did not take it personally and I am not mad at you. I tried showing that this is a debate thread name calling and jokes are rarely a side of it, because if you add that sort of stuff it gets very easily heated.


Gun control could contribute to lower return rates, but only in certain crimes. We still have lower return rates from mugging, grand theft auto and larceny neither of which genrally directly requires a gun.
but hey I see your point. However is that not a good thing though?

Also I am not saying the system would be the answear to your system because it isn't, America has dug such a giant hole for it self that it would be impossible to pay for such a fix up. However saying they are both very lacking is wrong, they are both lacking yes but adding very just makes it plane wrong. A system has never been as good as it is now pretty much, so in our limited understanding as human beings it is still as close to perfect as we managed to muster up.

on the whole you can't see where I am coming from it doesn't matter if you don't see the news, your social life does not consist of talking to me about what happens here with the people who have gone to jail. You hear from every form of media about your own system, bare in mind media is any form of storage or spreading of information.

Every person in the world has heard this expression an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Losing another human being is a horrific experience and an awfull situation but sorry to say, but he is not getting justice no matter what you do killing that other man is not going to bring him back. Also the death sentence is more likely to be a thing if you kill a person off higher ranking how is that fair? I thought every human being was equal in such a question...

No1 here is saying their system is perfect or the ultimate answer we merely conflict in if we think one or the other system has more redeeming factors about it. I personally think our system should be split in 2, first time offenders can go to the prisons we have now maybe even 2nd time offenders but everything after that should go to a typical American prison. fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

In America those types of crimes do often occur with guns. Unless were talking about the thugs that run around at night with a crow bar or something. Also in America a lot of mugging also involves guns. And yeah, I'll be honest I don't like the American gun laws. I honestly believe they contribute to higher crime rates, and I don't know what larceny is.

Actually pretty much all of my knowledge comes from you telling me how your system works, I don't watch mainstream media. At all. And like I've said it does have lots of things America could learn from. But most of what I know of your system comes directly from you and a little bit of online valid research, I'm aware that the media far over hypes your system is being to gental to the degrees of everyones happy and eating cotton candy, and I know that isn't true. Which is why I hate the media and refuse to watch their crap.


And some sort of split system could be nice indeed.

[Jorgen]

Seems we are at a slight agreement then =) no use to continue that part of the debate.

I think I have to say this once, bad things happen big whoop get over it.

Spadie congrats, if you are from America you just proved my point as to me thinking that the american views on this subject are barbaric.
If your views are that if you've done anything bad you are inherently bad and you should be punished your entire god damned life for a lapse in judgement then I must say, you are in fact just as evil as the men you hate. You've probly done something in your life that you regret that could be illegal or badly impacted another persons life, should you be punished your entire life for that?
Say if you speed with your car does that mean you should never be allowed in a car again? If you bullied a child when you were young does that mean you are just evil and you should be made a social outcast?
I would rather kill myself than live in a society that is that judgemental.

Don't confuse this with personal attack, we are all allowed our own thoughts but please try to view other sides.

Set yourself in the person situation, most people who do bad things are normal human beings that are pushed to a limit. Could be that child you bullied once in your childhood that just grew up completely fucked up and hate himself so much that in the end he snapped and did not care who he hurt. Technically that would make it so that you made a rapist, so are you directly responsible for that? should you be prosecuted?

same thing goes for people who do serious drugs, they were most likely at a low point and gave into peer pressure and a need to feel important or good. Does this make them terrible human beings that are a waste of space? not really.. they are merely human beings that got assulted by life and chose the wrong ways to deal with it.

[Spadie]

Seems we are at a slight agreement then =) no use to continue that part of the debate.

I think I have to say this once, bad things happen big whoop get over it.

Spadie congrats, if you are from America you just proved my point as to me thinking that the american views on this subject are barbaric.
If your views are that if you've done anything bad you are inherently bad and you should be punished your entire god damned life for a lapse in judgement then I must say, you are in fact just as evil as the men you hate. You've probly done something in your life that you regret that could be illegal or badly impacted another persons life, should you be punished your entire life for that?
Say if you speed with your car does that mean you should never be allowed in a car again? If you bullied a child when you were young does that mean you are just evil and you should be made a social outcast?
I would rather kill myself than live in a society that is that judgemental.

Don't confuse this with personal attack, we are all allowed our own thoughts but please try to view other sides.

Set yourself in the person situation, most people who do bad things are normal human beings that are pushed to a limit. Could be that child you bullied once in your childhood that just grew up completely fucked up and hate himself so much that in the end he snapped and did not care who he hurt. Technically that would make it so that you made a rapist, so are you directly responsible for that? should you be prosecuted?

same thing goes for people who do serious drugs, they were most likely at a low point and gave into peer pressure and a need to feel important or good. Does this make them terrible human beings that are a waste of space? not really.. they are merely human beings that got assulted by life and chose the wrong ways to deal with it.

Bullying is a little different than Rape. Rape is not a lapse in judgement, and these people do not deserve any chance at redemption. Also; no, I'm not American. I'm Canadian.

Also; about the speeding car, if you drive drunk and kill someone I believe you should not be allowed to drive again. Same with careless driving resulting in a fatality. Take the tools away from these people to commit a crime if possible.

ALSO; I do take being called ''as evil as the men I hate'' as a personal attack, as I have made it clear that the people I hate are murderers, child abusers and rapists. So in that sentence you directly said I am as bad as murderers, child abusers and rapists. Of course as you are a 'Community Leader' (which, as being such you should know better than to say things like that) so perhaps you are exempt from the ''no personal attacks'' rule. Mind you, I take a personal attack to be anything from racism to making fun of someones appearance, but saying they're as bad as the people who commit some of the worlds greatest crimes is a whole other level, and I don't think saying ''Not a personal attack but-'' makes it alright. ''Oh, Not to be racist but I hate your kind''

Does that make it any better? Nope.

Yes, bad things happen, but ''big whoop, get over it''? Try saying that to the family of a victim of murder, rape, assault, etc. I believe justice is making sure someone doesn't do something again, which is why I think my methods would be more effective than throwing them in a cell for a few years, looking them sternly in the eye, pointing, scrunching up your face and going ''Don't do that again!'' and spraying them with a spray bottle as they waltz out of the prison, back into a relatively normal life (that they have deprived someone of because of their crime)