What's wrong with Society?

[Old Crow]

Hydrogen cars is the future. It uses a regular engine and has about the same power as gas. It's waste product is water. Once they perfect that it will be awesome

[Cortez (Mr. T. FOO!)]

Whoa guys, deciding that we should remake society and how to do it on an internet forum? Now these thoughts are all grand for the most part (except for China taking over the world, that's not possible IMO) but think smaller steps please. See how difficult it is to make major change in your life then think about changing the lives of millions.

[Jorgen]

Hydrogen cars is the future. It uses a regular engine and has about the same power as gas. It's waste product is water. Once they perfect that it will be awesome

  Making even a prototype of a hydrogen car is hard, and making that prototype actually even close to useful is even worse.
There are actually several people who would go to the extent and say that it is a pipedream.
So don't put your money in a hydrogen car yet...

[Old Crow]

Hydrogen cars is the future. It uses a regular engine and has about the same power as gas. It's waste product is water. Once they perfect that it will be awesome

  Making even a prototype of a hydrogen car is hard, and making that prototype actually even close to useful is even worse.
There are actually several people who would go to the extent and say that it is a pipedream.
So don't put your money in a hydrogen car yet...

Girlfriends dad worked at Ford when they were working on hydrogen. The two problems they are having is that it takes quite a lot of electricity to create and companies don't know if they want to produce it on site or off site. It's not a pipedream, Ford, Chevy, BMW, Audi, Toyota, nissian and I think Mazda all have working prototypes. I would say its 10 years off with the pace they can develop it, and hybrids and electric cars are just too damned expensive and driving 40 miles isn't possible for everybody in one day.

[Pillz]

Whoa guys, deciding that we should remake society and how to do it on an internet forum? Now these thoughts are all grand for the most part (except for China taking over the world, that's not possible IMO) but think smaller steps please. See how difficult it is to make major change in your life then think about changing the lives of millions.

But that's not the thread idea.. sure it's hypothetical and unrealistic, but they're real thoughts and ideas that could one day be applied to society. All we're really doing is finding problems with society that won't continue to work forever; like cars, our justice system, our government, and so on.

Getting the world to understand there are in fact problems with our way of living is the first step to doing anything about it. Also, technically no country could take over the world, nor would any country in their right minds try. Though if America was taken out of the picture, the assholes that jump into every small world squabble and blow it out of proportion; China and other world powers could use that to their advantage. Not taking over the world, but possibly expanding and starting other wars. If the Recent Kim Jung EEEL hadn't passed away, NK probably would of done the same if we gave them a chance.

Regardless, small steps are just as much as a response as big ones. Like Black basically said, the world isn't going to change in our lifetime so we might as well not care; but small steps are taken every day towards a better tomorrow, even though at the same time we're probably taking some steps backwards.. But if you have any ideas for small steps we could make before the end of our own generation, let us know! Even if we can't make that happen, it'd be nice to leave instructions to be followed by later generations.

[Jorgen]

Hydrogen cars is the future. It uses a regular engine and has about the same power as gas. It's waste product is water. Once they perfect that it will be awesome

  Making even a prototype of a hydrogen car is hard, and making that prototype actually even close to useful is even worse.
There are actually several people who would go to the extent and say that it is a pipedream.
So don't put your money in a hydrogen car yet...

Girlfriends dad worked at Ford when they were working on hydrogen. The two problems they are having is that it takes quite a lot of electricity to create and companies don't know if they want to produce it on site or off site. It's not a pipedream, Ford, Chevy, BMW, Audi, Toyota, nissian and I think Mazda all have working prototypes. I would say its 10 years off with the pace they can develop it, and hybrids and electric cars are just too damned expensive and driving 40 miles isn't possible for everybody in one day.

Not sure what they do then, I haven't looked in to hydrogen cars for around 2 years. However the last plans were to crystalize hydrogen with another molecule, which would mean you would still create green house material.

The other methods are even worse. 1: gigantic gas tank, basically it would make your car lose traction due to all the hydrogen trying to pull it up. or 2: gas tank that compresses the hydrogen (since it expands soooo muuuch), which means a car crash would get ugly EXTREMELY quickly one crash and shit would explode.

then comes the even larger problem with hydrogen cars, cost per produced unit and how to obtain large quantities of hydrogen.
Hydrogen is not as easy to obtain and keep as you would think, hydrolosis is difficult and requires A LOT of energy on a grand scale. Meaning you would shit from the green house gasses coming from gasoline to the green house gasses coming from a power plant.
The cleanest way to obtain Hydrogen is a type of alge or bacteria that can produce it when they are mutated. However the quantities are ridiculously small, so the amount you would need is just inconceivable. 

Oh well as I've said, been a while since I made my project on the hydrogen driven car.

[Fullmetal Megadave]

I blame the Federal Government, and Socialistic views. and the belief that security is better than liberty. Along with that, look at why the soviet union collapsed; It was mostly because they tried to capture afghanistan and spent loads of funs into it, thus bankrupting their society. Another is the mixture of church and state, ever since the decision to seperate the 2 was made, we have made loads of progress. I believe that we should completely collapse the federal government, and any programs that fdr set forth. We should also end the war on drugs, because the bulk of the national debt is drug wars. If we just followed the path our founding fathers set forth for us, this mess may have either been prevented, or greatly reduced.


TL;DR End the fed, end the drug wars, and vote ron paul

Now by feds do you mean end the government of the United States? I do agree that it has been bloated beyond belief and that alot of the politicians are abusing their powers. One big problem that we need to get rid of is lobbyists. Those damned dogs do nothing but serve themselves and its just said that they are allowed in our government. Why do you think Lockheed can get away with the mistake that is the F-35 or that gun rights are being relaxed to the point where even convicted felons can carry guns? All lobbyist pulling the stings on their politicians. Ending the U.S. government will do no good however, thats just gonna create a huge power vacuum for the world that the Chinese will happily fill and start their conquest of the world (not crazy, 1.8 billion people, communist government, who's the only one stopping them right now?)

I do agree with pillz, we need a complete reload, on both the government and the way we live. Our infrastructure is built for the world of yesterday, with resources being dwindled its time to build up cities again, where people can walk or bike to where they need to go, not drive 15 miles to nearest market. Think about it, huge construction projects equal jobs, lead to improvements in peoples lives and can help the economy get back on track. If this is to be done however we need to redo the government and get rid of red tape, waste and those damn lobbyists.

When I say end the fed, i mean adopt the gold standard, kick out the federal reserve, and leave Prohibition rights to the states.

[Blackllama]

Bikes.  There's a shitload of bikers here in the portland OR area, makes more sense then all these cars.

Let people waste their money as gas gets more and more expensive, then we run out, and everyone starts finding alternatives.  Bikes are cheap and can get you places, also good for you and the enviroment not to be a hippy.  Use that fuel that cars wouldn't be using for shit like planes and trains.  For long distance travel, instead of wasting it on individual cars that each are holding about 1-7 people.

[Old Crow]

Bikes.  There's a shitload of bikers here in the portland OR area, makes more sense then all these cars.

Let people waste their money as gas gets more and more expensive, then we run out, and everyone starts finding alternatives.  Bikes are cheap and can get you places, also good for you and the enviroment not to be a hippy.  Use that fuel that cars wouldn't be using for shit like planes and trains.  For long distance travel, instead of wasting it on individual cars that each are holding about 1-7 people.

Problem, you live in the most bike friendly state. My school is 20 miles away and if I ride my bike to town I have to risk my life against cars as there are no bike lines and the closes trail is three miles down the road from me. It's possible some places but for most in the states its not.

@fullmetal the fed reserve, isn't that a safety net to safeguard against what happened during the depression, when people came to withdraw their money and found that the bank kept it.

[Cortez (Mr. T. FOO!)]

If you guys want to see how some of these drastic changes could possibly effect society (and get a couple cheap laughs) play this http://www.nationstates.net/. You create your own country and address issues confronting you. The choices you make effect your country and you can get some pretty funny outcomes.

About the hydrogen car. I don't understand how the only waste product would be water. Hydrogen^2 combines with oxygen to create water but that doesn't make energy. You would either have to burn it or use a large fuel cell to power an electric engine. These options aren't really viable because it is extremely expensive to create the components.

[Old Crow]

Give the hydrogen car ten years. If they keep the research up it will be worth it, and even if it takes alot of energy to produce, I'm sure its not far off of what it takes to produce oil from the oil sands. Again electric car probably isn't viable due to its limited range, I say for today turbo diesel is the best bet, 60+ in the Ford Fiesta and the 1.4 turbo in the Chevy Cruize/sonic is 42 mpg. Get it over 60 and it will help greatly with reducing oil consumption.

[Doc. Mentalist S.]

Cars? The things you own end up owning you.
Starting a new, would be a utopia, and everything that is meant to be is pre-determined and pre-defined. There is no perfect Society, only progression. Trial and error. ex. A country out of a civil war conflict. A war between socialists and capitalists, socialists win and converts the country to communism, turns out it isn't working looks at the modern world and converts to democracy.

Society, if there were no order, we would fall under chaos and anarchy.

Reason why people will not build a new city OR rebuild cities to the "Utopian View" is because of the current situation we are in. People still living in poverty, other people in the world has their own needs. We're too afraid of of the world sinking under, a nuclear war causing nuclear winter, etc

Generations later, where's the diversity? I mean, you get educated the same as your peers on the same subjects. There would be culture, its called our history. I'm sorry but i am going to have to reference the movie "the hunger games" on this. Take a look at the government structure, totalitarianism. But again those that are living in the "capital" as compared to everyone else in the districts. To create this perfect world there will be some sacrifices, sacrifices involving isolating others.

Another way of viewing is like this: The rich/wealthy and powerful planning our future for us themselves. The chances of your utopia, is if the earth expands itself into space exploration and finds a habitable planet and construct cites on it. But only then that would be a slight probability.

To go back on cars, "control the supply, and you control the demand". They already have these invented, its just that these automotive companies are trying to get consumers spending on gas fuels. Once the demand reaches their expected peak, out comes the new automotive models.

We're too easily corruptible, there is no perfect being.

Sorry if im throwing thse out there but im just too tired to format my points.

[Fullmetal Megadave]

Theres a few other games that deal with political issues. The first one is cyber nations. Its sorta similar to nation states, but it features more in depth with the military and spending. Another is eRepublik, its not into the political as much, but its about having your own strip of land, where you can build factories and other stuff; This game gets more into the Political Landscape and elections.

[Old Crow]

Cars? The things you own end up owning you.
Starting a new, would be a utopia, and everything that is meant to be is pre-determined and pre-defined. There is no perfect Society, only progression. Trial and error. ex. A country out of a civil war conflict. A war between socialists and capitalists, socialists win and converts the country to communism, turns out it isn't working looks at the modern world and converts to democracy.

Society, if there were no order, we would fall under chaos and anarchy.

Reason why people will not build a new city OR rebuild cities to the "Utopian View" is because of the current situation we are in. People still living in poverty, other people in the world has their own needs. We're too afraid of of the world sinking under, a nuclear war causing nuclear winter, etc

Generations later, where's the diversity? I mean, you get educated the same as your peers on the same subjects. There would be culture, its called our history. I'm sorry but i am going to have to reference the movie "the hunger games" on this. Take a look at the government structure, totalitarianism. But again those that are living in the "capital" as compared to everyone else in the districts. To create this perfect world there will be some sacrifices, sacrifices involving isolating others.

Another way of viewing is like this: The rich/wealthy and powerful planning our future for us themselves. The chances of your utopia, is if the earth expands itself into space exploration and finds a habitable planet and construct cites on it. But only then that would be a slight probability.

To go back on cars, "control the supply, and you control the demand". They already have these invented, its just that these automotive companies are trying to get consumers spending on gas fuels. Once the demand reaches their expected peak, out comes the new automotive models.

We're too easily corruptible, there is no perfect being.

Sorry if im throwing thse out there but im just too tired to format my points.

For cars thing is they tried that (at least the American companies) and they almost all went bankrupt over it. I'm not the biggest fan of a capitalist economy but the auto industry would be a good example of not being dominated by one company, fostering a good amount of competition and causing innovation and forward movement. I'm probably somewhat bias because that's the entire economy in Michigan but just a few things

1 ) 2000's Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler all just built big SUV's that made them more money when they sold then cars. When they completely neglected build good cars with good gas mileage they lost out on a huge market.

2) 2008 Near bankruptcy for all but Ford, Chrysler doesn't know how to build even a good car and GM almost went under. Then GM and Chrysler get bailed out

3) 2012 All three are building industry leading cars such as the Volt and the Ford Fiesta, all are in the black and all are doing well

Thing is with the Auto industry they support a large number of blue collar workers, and not too many white collar workers. If they never got that bailout you might as well have said goodbye to Michigan, because there would be no jobs for anybody

The Utopian thing is something that is going to take probably 100's of years because of human nature, there is just too much greed like you pointed out, in the world today. Too many people are making too much money and not using it to help others but buy 10 Porsche's or suppress anything that will make them less money. I do disagree with you about building our way out however. America is still a free country, we still have freedom of the press, we still have freedom of speech and so on. We get enough people and resources we can build cities that don't need cars to get everywhere, we can build housing for everybody from the lowest waged workers to middle class to beyond. We can build structures to help the homeless, programs that could help them get some education and prop them up (just not now, Republicans wont allow it, and Democrats just dont care ATM)

Good example is the best city ever Detroit. There is no groceries in the city, just liquor stores at every corner. Its the only city with no good form of public transportation. There are no after school programs because most are being cut and except for downtown near the stadiums there is nothing to do. If anything we could (and should) just tear down Detroit and rebuild it. Hell in 10-20 years all the trolls/arsonists will have burnt down most of it anyway, and Detroit's Firefighter chief is not gonna waste his time on a structure that is more then 50% burned and abandoned unless it threatens other structures, and trust me, there are a lot of abandoned structures in Detroit

[Pillz]

The Utopian thing is something that is going to take probably 100's of years because of human nature, there is just too much greed like you pointed out, in the world today. Too many people are making too much money and not using it to help others but buy 10 Porsche's or suppress anything that will make them less money. I do disagree with you about building our way out however. America is still a free country, we still have freedom of the press, we still have freedom of speech and so on. We get enough people and resources we can build cities that don't need cars to get everywhere, we can build housing for everybody from the lowest waged workers to middle class to beyond. We can build structures to help the homeless, programs that could help them get some education and prop them up (just not now, Republicans wont allow it, and Democrats just dont care ATM)

Good example is the best city ever Detroit. There is no groceries in the city, just liquor stores at every corner. Its the only city with no good form of public transportation. There are no after school programs because most are being cut and except for downtown near the stadiums there is nothing to do. If anything we could (and should) just tear down Detroit and rebuild it. Hell in 10-20 years all the trolls/arsonists will have burnt down most of it anyway, and Detroit's Firefighter chief is not gonna waste his time on a structure that is more then 50% burned and abandoned unless it threatens other structures, and trust me, there are a lot of abandoned structures in Detroit

Let's not use the term Utopia, I understand it's context but basically Utopia means the perfect world that will never be, because there will always be further problems. I completely agree that it's all trial and error, but we have yet to realize/correct thousands of errors that are currently an issue. That's what this thread's main focus is on, what could be done to make today and tomorrow better. We can only figure that out once it's too late.

Rebuilding cities will happen; not entirely but subdivision by subdivision it can be done. We've slowly expanded cities as they thrive, with the original centers of the cities being the oldest. Most 1800's and early 1900's buildings are already falling apart across the world; if we hadn't constantly fixed and maintained them they probably would of all collapsed already. Remember all the epidemics in the 50's with buildings in new york not having proper fire escapes, doorways, stairwells and the such? We kind of just fixed all that up with tape and glue; sometimes completely reconstructing single sections of the buildings. Sooner or later it'll be time for a whole new building, but I see why Doc would say it'll never happen.

That's mainly because until political powers see a "dying need" to do so; they won't change a thing. So I'd say for the next 100-200 years we'll slowly get rid of the older buildings; perhaps create new cities altogether like China. They had a prototype City they were starting work on that won't be done for a decade or ten, but we've got tons of open space in America still to build outwards; and we can just tear down the older cities after their use has been drained completely. NEW NEW YORK.

Another issue is the plain laziness of the American work force.. I know that's a vague problem; but there never seems to be any urgency in getting buildings completed, or simply repainting roads. They finally repaved a nearby road 3 weeks ago, and it's still unmarked. It doesn't even take an hour or two to repaint the two yellow lines down a 50ft stretch of road.. yet it probably won't be another week till it gets done. While sometimes it could all be done in the same day, and you see the same kind of thing in other projects.

If it takes a whole month to repave and paint a road.. god knows how long it'd take to redo a city. Regardless if it's possible with our current resources or not, the idea is it needs to be done sometime in the future. I think most people understand this but everything cost money..

Should we even talk about the problems with our currency? Because I've often thought how stupid it is to pay for some things.. How a double cheeseburger and a Gallon of gas cost exactly the same.. And how in order to do virtually anything, the Gov't has to pay for it, but instead of anyone losing any real money, our debt just builds up and politicians continue to make more and more money while WE have to pay off our debts and essentially become even more poor as we go along..

New mission: Proprose effective new currency/bartering system.