Religion Thread

[dirtylaundry022]

I like to look at things from both perspectives.  I personally, am Roman Catholic, but that doesn't mean that science has no place.  Both arguments presented on the forums have holes.  We are not professionals in these fields, not should any of you be foolish enough to think that you are.  You should be knowledgeable enough to know WHY you believe your own personal beliefs at minimum.  Most of us, if not all have us, don't really have sufficient knowledge to tell others what to believe at 100% worked out EXACT opinion of religion.

Now, if you really are interested in studying theology and the existence of a higher power, you're not actually going to learn it from online forums :/  what you should do if you are really interested is go enroll in theology classes over the summer at a local religious university.  If this is unavailable, just look at theologists' writings on your own.  Some good authors to look at are Alister McGrath, St. Anslem of Canterbury, St. Thomas Aquinas (A major figure if you are unfamiliar), Ignatius of Loyola, or even writings from Pope John Paul II (you should know who this is...).

If you're already a believer, these will enlighten your religious experiences many times over, adding to why you believe your faith. 

If you don't believe, this should enlighten you both on proofs of God and the like, or give you sufficient fuel to light your anti-christian flames.

Now, this is just specifically for christianity.  There are other documents out there for the other major world religions (Judaism, Islam, etc.).  I have read sever and have reached my own conclusions on these religions and choose not to follow them for a plethora of reasons. 

The worst thing you can do is become angry with fighting over religion, as it defeats the purpose of religion to begin with :/

[Bjork]

The worst thing you can do is become angry with fighting over religion, as it defeats the purpose of religion to begin with :/

That is one of the biggest things of why Im not so religious since it seems to cause a lot of wars heck my country is split in two because of this and I have been seperated from my friends (Going to different religion schools)

I may look at religion in a few years time and decide if I am a religous person (maybe not christian) or an atheist.

[Jorgen]

i am gonna quote my self in fact "the one who rages over religion is not the one strong of faith, he has problems with his faith and needs to rain it down on others for their approvel"  XD

besides, crypto here lends me the social part of science, i am merely good at it not good at explaining it

[A.K Commando]

Good arguements one and all and I agree with what Jorgen has said (since I did indeed spend the time to read it all) which is basically that God was used to explain anything we didn't know (or witches in one sad story which you all know or should know) and as science explains more about the universe man will slowly begin rely on god as a substitute for the unexplainable in the future. This does not mean that god him(or her)self will just fade into the background as faith has often gotten me through the (thankfully) few rough spots in my life.

And on Bjork's note yes Religion has played quite the role in war, both anceint and modern. the Crusades are the best example of two religions duking it out since the Islamists controled Jerusalem (The Christan Holy City) and thus did the Pope command the Christan kings to band together to retake the city. For a more modern example let us look at the War on Terror. Though this war isn't all about religion it was started by it in the form of Radical Islamists hijacking some planes to smash them into the Twin Towers meerly because we DID NOT have all of our population follow Radical Islam but rather let our people worship who they wanted when they wanted.


And with DirtyLaundry's Referances to Christan texts for enlightenment I would like to ask that someone put up referances for the Science side of this Debate, then I would like to ask an admin to come and lock the thread for we have fufilled the purpose of a debate. This being that three parts have come together with these sides being, 1. The Believers of God whatever form and name he may take, 2. The Nonbelievers who do not believe in God no matter what evidance is placed before them and 3. Those who are inbetween and meerly came to see what would appeal to them more. Now while we could contiue on we will do nothing more then bring up the same arguements that we have all heard before, even if they be clad in a different skin.

[Jorgen]

the referances/sourcec for the science part of this can mainly be found in educational books, i would recomend either eduacating yourself if want info on it, or you could read some of stephen hawkings books it would grant insight 2 =)

yes this thread was destined for a lock seeing that religion is something that comes to one persons perception not, which is not something i could force changed =P

[Holy]

Come to think of it, not on only is your stance an illogical preference, but inductive reasoning says that it's extremely unlikely that God and not science is the correct explanation.

You don't actually know if it is real or not, you simply assume so you can be content with yourself, thinking you have found an answer.

Standard procedure—and by golly is this a shocker!—is to disbelieve something that you don't know is real. Answer me this, Holy: Why do you believe in the Christian God instead of Allah or karma or nature spirits or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other deity or supernatural force that's ever been dreamed up in the two hundred thousand years since anatomically modern humans showed up?

And it's ridiculously hypocritical and irrational to moronic proportions that people who have blind faith in something, by definition being unable to prove it, expect people who do not have blind faith to prove them wrong. Guess what, fuckers: A theory is impossible to disprove until it is proven. You have a hypothesis (untested and unproven), not a theory (proven). We have no obligation whatsoever to ignore your randomly preferred superstitions.

Easy answer really to why I picked Christianity:
-As I said before, my grandfather, a catholic, was cured of sleep apnea.
-I have been attacked and paralyzed by demons twice before.
-One night my mother prayed i'd get a job, next morning two different companies that i sent resumes to months ago sent me mail to be interviewed. I started working the following week.
-I've witnessed possession and exorcism.
-I have spoken to 4 different demons in one of my possessed friends who showed, by personality, to be 4 completely different beings.
-I've spoken in tongues while being full of the Holy Spirit. Not aware of that I was doing so.
-Upon praising and thanking Jesus I know that angels are around me even as I type this. I feel them touch me as chills go down my spine, even when it is hot in my house.
-A lady at my mother's work (my mother being a nurse) died for a few minutes, the lady was normally a well tempered woman. The doctor my mom's boss is friends with managed to save her life. Upon coming back she was furious and demanded he send her back right now and that it was the most beautiful place she had ever been.
-I've seen a bible verse in one of my dreams that i've never seen. When I woke up, I looked for it and found it word for word in my dream.

There are more experiences i've had, however, that should be enough to make the point. I've experienced all that following God, not some fictional spaghetti monster or other false deity.


You don't seem to know what a theory is. So here is the definition from dictionary.com. Look at definition 2.

Code: [Select]

the·o·ry
   /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/ Show Spelled[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ries.
1.
a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3.
Mathematics . a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4.
the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5.
a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6.
contemplation or speculation.
7.
guess or conjecture.

As you can see, theories are not absolute fact as you make them appear to be in your post. Theories can be disproven at any time. M-string theory, for example, is no exception to this rule. In the video posted on page 10 of this thread the people who are researching it even say that it can lead to a dead end. Science defines theories to be capable of being disproven so blind fools don't go around saying things that aren't necessarily true.

Before claiming that I have no idea what science is, you should look into it yourself my hypocritical friend. ^_^ Actually better yet, why don't you start going to college where you start learning real science little one.

[Priest]

Concurred. Although I disagree that religion has ever directly been the cause for any war. Economic and political reasons, I believe, are much more likely then religious divisions. Jerusalem, during the times of the Crusades was a major port city that accumulated vast amounts of wealth. Whoever controlled the city could control that wealth. During the reign of the caesars in Rome, it was common for a new emperor to wage a campaign against neighboring territories in order to gain their tributes and political repsect.

[Jorgen]

Oh dear and christianty can't lead to a dead end?

besides it all depeds on if it is a new theory or an old one, but a scientific theory can't get beyond the name theory, it can only get more hypthesises that either disprove or prove said theory. it is like evolution, it ain't gonna get past the theory part, but it is still next to fact.

you know what i can't help my self but your life sounds kind off like an acid trip at times XD

[Bjork]

Concurred. Although I disagree that religion has ever directly been the cause for any war. Economic and political reasons, I believe, are much more likely then religious divisions. Jerusalem, during the times of the Crusades was a major port city that accumulated vast amounts of wealth. Whoever controlled the city could control that wealth. During the reign of the caesars in Rome, it was common for a new emperor to wage a campaign against neighboring territories in order to gain their tributes and political repsect.

Well if you lived in Ireland you would think differently.. it was practically civil war about catholic and protestants.
 (Not saying that there werent political reasons behind the other wars just I cant see anything other than religion cause the Troubles in Ireland)

[A.K Commando]

And yet Priest the wars to take Jerusalem and the surroundings cities were called CRUSADES, which is, as defined by Dictonary.com

cru·sade   /kruˈseɪd/  Show Spelled
[kroo-seyd]  Show IPA
noun, verb, -sad·ed, -sad·ing. 
–noun
1. ( often initial capital letter ) any of the military expeditions undertaken by the Christians of Europe in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries for the recovery of the Holy Land from the Muslims.
2. any war carried on under papal sanction.
3. any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc.: a crusade against child abuse.


Now the Defientition we wish to examine closer is the second one which is, Any war carried out under Papal sanction. Also The first Defenition explains what I was just talking about. But like I said earlier, this debate has run it's course and has now run down into people bickering about what they said and why they said it. So I would like an admin once again, Please lock the thread and end this debate which hath outlived it's life.

Also Bjork I know hat your talking about with the Irish civil war, tis a terriable thing that's happening over there, which ironicly occured after the Irish rebelion liberated the Protestants section from Britian (or at least I think it was the Protestant section...could be wrong)

[Bjork]

The war itself is over but the adults who are secterian (however you spell it) are teaching there children and Catholics and Protestants are seperated in schools etc

It also all started with English/Scottish settlers came and took a bit of land off the Irish causing war and still problems to this day -.-
It happened about 300 years ago maybe 400

[A.K Commando]

ya it's sad when the past can't just be left to lie in peace...

[Holy]

ya it's sad when the past can't just be left to lie in peace...

We would have nothing to learn from then. The past is a valuable resource.

besides it all depeds on if it is a new theory or an old one, but a scientific theory can't get beyond the name theory, it can only get more hypthesises that either disprove or prove said theory. it is like evolution, it ain't gonna get past the theory part, but it is still next to fact.

The only things absolute in science are laws and mathematical theorems. Theories can get close to but never reach absolute fact. Laws, however, are facts which all things must follow. The definition given in college about theories is that they must be both testable and falsifiable (which means able to be proven wrong.) Something that can be proven wrong is simply not 100% fact. It may be close like you said, but it is not.

Now the Defientition we wish to examine closer is the second one which is, Any war carried out under Papal sanction. Also The first Defenition explains what I was just talking about. But like I said earlier, this debate has run it's course and has now run down into people bickering about what they said and why they said it. So I would like an admin once again, Please lock the thread and end this debate which hath outlived it's life.

This thread is about religious debate, I see no derailment from the original topic. Religion will never die out in the world of debate so I see no reason to lock this.

The Crusades are an iffy topic. I think it is a just cause to take back the Holy land if others are soiling it with blasphemy as well as disrespecting it. There may have been a better way to do it. Eh, in the end no one knows the whole story. With the victor goes the spoils as well as says how history will be written.

[A.K Commando]

Holy I never said Religion wouldn't die out in the world of debate I said this debate has run it's course and you have just proven my point. We are no long debating about wether or not God Exists, which to me is what this whole thread was about at the start. Now it is just you and Jorgen sniping at each other from across your respective lines.

Also I said lie in PEACE, not Lie forgotten forever, there is a differance there and it isn't subtle. One must learn from past mistakes but do you really need to keep the fight going on in Domestic areas? (Schools workplace etc.)

[Holy]

1) I don't see how I proved anything of yours.
2) This thread wasn't made for you. The topic is religion is a very general topic, to narrow it down to what you want to talk about only is selfish.
3) We aren't fighting we are debating.
4) This is the internet not a Domestic area.