Saxton Hale Rule #2 Clarification

[IsYn Wooley]

Rule 2 reads

 "2. Don't hide and wait until the end of the round to do damage to Saxton."

Seems pretty cut and dry to me, however I would like to know where the line is drawn against offenders.

say we have 2 Engineers left in castle siege and they have a little base setup underground.

They both have 0 damage and have been down here under the castle the entire round!

Granted...I know the damn engineer is slow and their class is heavily dependent on not only just about every other class, but their sentry as well.

What is stopping you from building your sentry gun somewhere your teammates can kite Saxton passed at least 3 times per 5 minutes of the round?

Suggest the draw bridge area -_-

IDK who is worse in these cases though:

-The engineers who will repeat this strategy just about every round. (Who always happen to be the last one alive and ;unless someone who is dead can speak up and call you out for camping, the Hale may wonder on for another 3-5 minutes before stumbling upon your fortress)

-Or the soldier/medic who camps along with him.

Yes, I know that an engineer all alone against the hale has really no way to defend himself, but these other players also end up rolling zero damage until the end of the round.

Surely you guys are capable of healing the rest of your team and heck even doing some damage and then you can escape and retreat to the engineer's fortified position...before the rest of your team is dead.

This is sounding more like a rant then a question by now, but I hope those who care can see past the agitation and maybe just discuss your feelings on situations like this.

This happens a lot when I am on. I even ask people to do some dmg and not go hide the whole round since it's part of the rules, but... 

The rule is don't hide and wait to do damage to Saxton.
-What is the punishment for breaking said rule?

Fellow community members when you do this you just turtle the entire game and ruin it for the rest of us who wish to get on to the next round.

If this was a staring match then I could see how the offenders have the right idea, but it is not.

I rest my case,
-Wooley

Appendage to my original thoughts

I can see how maybe we can have leniency on the poor poor engineers, but on extremely long rounds when you see a scout/soldier/medic 0-200 dmg with only 3 people left (consistently, I mean over the course of maybe 4-5 rounds this behavior is being recorded by someone noticing players x,y,z never have dmg and are always last ones to die)

/sarcasm If you are new to VSH you are not going to get any better hiding and not gaining experience from seeing how others attack the Hale from your little hole in the ground. -_-

[symbolzzzz]

Three things
1) There is a difference between hiding and camping. (Having a big fuckoff turret that shoots the Australian is hardly what I'd call stealthy hiding)

2) I'm pretty sure the rule applies for cases when the person hiding is, lets say a scout, and he just sits in a corner waiting for the rest of the team to die, and then runs out and starts shooting the Hale.

3) As for engineers, the maps are hardly so large that the Hale shouldn't be capable of finding the nests, if he does't look then you can hardly blame the engineers, that's the Hales on incompetence. Even then if the Hale doesn't know the map, you can always beacon the engineer, if the Hale is ignoring the engineer then that counts as being friendly and he gets a slay.

All that being said that's just how I see the rules, the HA's might very well disagree with me on this.

[Liam Neeson]

Never really agreed with the existence of rule 2 my self always felt that rule 10 made it obsolete.

And if I'm understanding you correctly your suggesting we make it against the rules for engies to camp? If that is the case I strongly disagree, I've always seen the Saxton hale gamemode as more of a challenge for normal players instead of Saxton Hale. That is why I think most rules should be aimed at Saxton instead of handicapping normal players anymore than they already are.

[IsYn Wooley]

I see your point exactly.

I guess the real question then is does the rule mean

Do not hide and wait to attack?

or does it mean

Do not Hide...

Do not wait to attack Saxton until the end of the round?

Like I said I am all for letting the engies have their base of operations...but when I play engy I am not sitting somewhere on the map that I cannot be dealing damage to the Hale while everyone else is alive.

@ Liam
This is a team based game, should I not expect the engineer to setup shop somewhere useful to the team?
I am not saying make it illegal for engineers to camp with their equipment. (Never thought that actually)
I just feel that if you are not doing damage to saxton, then you are hurting the game mode.
Especially when round after round you(not you the engy) tend to be the only one left in the dark reaches of the map with 0 dmg a shotgun and a sentry.

Unless the hale is one pubic hair away from death...what chance do you stand against him having had no time to watch how this hale attacks the entire round? Your only contribution to this round has been to give a few people who managed to find your dispenser to heal (Thanks from the spies like myself) or get some ammo.


@ All
This may be just the way my brain works, but it must be important enough for it to be Rule #2 and not rule #10 right?

To me the most important rules will reside at the top or in caps. (You know what going beyond that...people should just follow all the damn rules really -_-)

Thanks,
-wooley

[Inject OH 4]

It mainly exist because douch bag players decide to go scout and literally do nothing until everyone's dead and they get full crits then they come out and attack. That is not something we wish for people to be doing and is why the rule exist.

Aside from that I don't mind the Engineers camping as with what Symbolz said.

But yeah I can see how this rule is a little on the grey side and should probably be adjusted to sound better and be more easily understood.

[Liam Neeson]

I see your point exactly.

I guess the real question then is does the rule mean

Do not hide and wait to attack?

or does it mean

Do not Hide...

Do not wait to attack Saxton until the end of the round?

Like I said I am all for letting the engies have their base of operations...but when I play engy I am not sitting somewhere on the map that I cannot be dealing damage to the Hale while everyone else is alive.

@ Liam
This is a team based game, should I not expect the engineer to setup shop somewhere useful to the team?
I am not saying make it illegal for engineers to camp with their equipment. (Never thought that actually)
I just feel that if you are not doing damage to saxton, then you are hurting the game mode.
Especially when round after round you(not you the engy) tend to be the only one left in the dark reaches of the map with 0 dmg a shotgun and a sentry.

Unless the hale is one pubic hair away from death...what chance do you stand against him having had no time to watch how this hale attacks the entire round? Your only contribution to this round has been to give a few people who managed to find your dispenser to heal (Thanks from the spies like myself) or get some ammo.


@ All
This may be just the way my brain works, but it must be important enough for it to be Rule #2 and not rule #10 right?

To me the most important rules will reside at the top or in caps. (You know what going beyond that...people should just follow all the damn rules really -_-)

Thanks,
-wooley

I know what your saying ,but being bad at playing shouldn't be against the rules. They aren't delaying the round by not doing damage they are just making it harder for your team to win which sucks ,but any game you play is going to have bad players and your going to have to accept that.

Also I think you misunderstood what I was talking about in reference to rule #10 I wasn't talking about their order just the rules themselves.

[symbolzzzz]

But yeah I can see how this rule is a little on the grey side and should probably be adjusted to sound better and be more easily understood.

Eh you could just add a small clarification text similar to what finni did with his trading rules. Something like (Only counts if the person is hiding with the sole intention of just getting last stand critical hits, look at Rule 7 for guidance)

[IsYn Wooley]

I have to disagree with you and say that those people who are not dealing dmg at all are not bad at the game they are just not following the rules.

Being bad at the game is going after Saxton and missing 9 out of 10 shots...dealing a measly 100 dmg in the process.

As for the rule order like I corrected myself...it's not important people should just follow all of the rules.

What I need to know from the community/admins:

Is it against the rules to sit in a secluded part of the map as any class and end up being the only one/few left alive having dealt NO dmg at all prior to being the last member of your team?

Forget the whole engineer thing, that seems to be causing an issue. This rule should be class agnostic or it should be discussed and exceptions defined for special cases like said engineer.

Thank you all for the responses thus far,
-Wooley


Did not get a chance to post prior to those two responses -_-

[Inject OH 4]

Well no I mean their are legitimately scouts that for the soul purpose of crtis do nothing and hide in a corner for the round and immediately run out after everyone's dead. Also you should NEVER be camping as a scout anyways.

[Liam Neeson]

I would say for the most part no, like symbolz said there is a difference between hiding and camping. If a person is camping at the top of a watch tower on castle seige waiting to ambush saxton I would say no. But if they are lets say hiding underneath the stairs until they get full crits then Yes.

[IsYn Wooley]

Thank you all for the replies.

So to sum it up.

Obviously the Engys have limited immunity to said rule considering they have stationary equipment.

But for those people who hide out most of the round repeatedly until they are Last Man Standing we warn them to contribute to the fight.
 
Correct?

Please clarify if any punishment is given against players found continuously waiting on the last stand crits.

-Wooley

[Cadaver]

Hmm.  Typically, the rule is to prevent friends of Saxton,  people who want to be the last player alive, and the needless extension of the round, so the others playing do not get irritated and leave.

I will get the HA for Saxton to respond.

[Yahtzee]

The Engy immunity usually co-insides with the friendly saxton/scout rule. If they are just hiding in a corner of the map and saxton is just camping/spending 30 minutes just derping around the map and not looking, then it warrants a slay.

[Finniespin]

A hiding engineer is easy to spot/hear.
You can hear the beeping of the sentry gun.

Using source engine air jumping techniques you can scout the whole map vary fast.

And an engineer is easily taken out. Just rage the sentry or lure him out.
Granted, some noobs may not know how to use tactics.