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Debate Forum / Free will(y)
« on: March 27, 2011, 01:37:46 AM »
Hey, I'm new to this forum. I was going to apply for admin stuff but I got sidetracked looking at all these debate topics. One that took my interest was the one on free will. I tried to reply to someone called "crypto" (I believe), but I couldn't because it's a "dead debate", so I thought I'd do so here, if that's alright.
You said:
"Unless you can prove the existence of a supreme being (God, fate, whatever), there is zero reason whatsoever to reject the notion of free will. Sure, there are environmental factors that limit our freedoms, but free will is literally a scientific characteristic of our species, being self-conscious organisms and all that stuff."
Whoever replied to you about still having free will if there is a God is incorrect. I don't know if you explained to them why that is, but meh.
As for free will, no, we do not have free will.
I was first told why free will is non-existent by a girl about a year ago. I was open-minded enough to consider the notion, but unwilling to commit to the idea at first. So I thought about it for a while and every argument that I could posit in favour of purporting that we have free will was easily destroyed by my counter-arguments.
I think I'll touch on this briefly. First argument against free will is Hume's Fork: Either our actions are determined, in which case we are not responsible for them, or they are the result of random events, in which case we are not responsible for them.
Now my first counter-point to this was: "Our actions are determined, but by us".
But everything can actually be decided by the genes+environment debate. Your genes are pre-determined; you can do nothing about this. But you can control your genes, right? I mean, we're both men, and as men, are supposed to be sexually promiscuous as evolutionary theory dictates (to a degree; culturally we have become monogamous...somewhat), but we can overcome our sexual desire, right? Well, some of us can, some of us don't...Why is this? Obviously something has occurred in our genes that allows us to overcome this. Most likely we inherit this from our mothers, as women are evolutionarily more likely to be prudish rather than promiscuous.
However, this does not change the fact that something in our genetics is allowing us to overcome something else in our genetics. Or perhaps it is our environment? Well what environment we put ourselves in is decided by our genes...and our family...But your parents have genes, so in effect, the foundations are your genetics, at least on this proximate level.
I've rushed this response, so you'll have to lull over it and analyse it and try to come up with your own ideas for and against, but let me know what you think.
As for being self-conscious, we are like that because the niche that we have now occupied dictated that we were required to do so. It all comes down to gene theory (though if you want to be more up to date, RNA).
Someone else mentioned not seeing the point in living if we don't have free will. Listen, I don't have the freedom to do a lot of things, but that does not stop me from enjoying my life. I accept that I am inherently limited by my evolutionary past, but the most powerful instinct that we have, our most basal instinct is that of survival of our genes...So there is your answer (to whoever said that and will most likely not even see this).
You said:
"Unless you can prove the existence of a supreme being (God, fate, whatever), there is zero reason whatsoever to reject the notion of free will. Sure, there are environmental factors that limit our freedoms, but free will is literally a scientific characteristic of our species, being self-conscious organisms and all that stuff."
Whoever replied to you about still having free will if there is a God is incorrect. I don't know if you explained to them why that is, but meh.
As for free will, no, we do not have free will.
I was first told why free will is non-existent by a girl about a year ago. I was open-minded enough to consider the notion, but unwilling to commit to the idea at first. So I thought about it for a while and every argument that I could posit in favour of purporting that we have free will was easily destroyed by my counter-arguments.
I think I'll touch on this briefly. First argument against free will is Hume's Fork: Either our actions are determined, in which case we are not responsible for them, or they are the result of random events, in which case we are not responsible for them.
Now my first counter-point to this was: "Our actions are determined, but by us".
But everything can actually be decided by the genes+environment debate. Your genes are pre-determined; you can do nothing about this. But you can control your genes, right? I mean, we're both men, and as men, are supposed to be sexually promiscuous as evolutionary theory dictates (to a degree; culturally we have become monogamous...somewhat), but we can overcome our sexual desire, right? Well, some of us can, some of us don't...Why is this? Obviously something has occurred in our genes that allows us to overcome this. Most likely we inherit this from our mothers, as women are evolutionarily more likely to be prudish rather than promiscuous.
However, this does not change the fact that something in our genetics is allowing us to overcome something else in our genetics. Or perhaps it is our environment? Well what environment we put ourselves in is decided by our genes...and our family...But your parents have genes, so in effect, the foundations are your genetics, at least on this proximate level.
I've rushed this response, so you'll have to lull over it and analyse it and try to come up with your own ideas for and against, but let me know what you think.
As for being self-conscious, we are like that because the niche that we have now occupied dictated that we were required to do so. It all comes down to gene theory (though if you want to be more up to date, RNA).
Someone else mentioned not seeing the point in living if we don't have free will. Listen, I don't have the freedom to do a lot of things, but that does not stop me from enjoying my life. I accept that I am inherently limited by my evolutionary past, but the most powerful instinct that we have, our most basal instinct is that of survival of our genes...So there is your answer (to whoever said that and will most likely not even see this).